As a culturally sensitive vegan, I would approve of Michaëlle Jean's seal eating and hunting, if only she wasn't conflating inuit seal hunting with east coast seal hunting... So not the same thing.
Incidentally, none of this would 'justify' rape, torture, or genocide; it would mean that less [horrible crime] beats than more [horrible crime]; if those are *the only two options available*.
So much for your claim to see beyond 'black and white.' The question is not animal welfare or no welfare at all. The question is not one of how 'well' do we treat animals when we use them, but whether we should us them at all. You're asking a policy question; I'm asking a moral question.
And by "shrillness" you mean something to the effect of, "Someone disagrees with me. Why can't he respect my opinion? Why can't he see how hard I am trying? Why can't he see how much I care? (But not too much, of course, not enough to lead to any measurable change in the lives of animals. I'll accept that 'animal welfare' really does take the interests of animals into account even if there is no evidence to support that at all.)"
I'll be clear, it is great that you are a vegan, but I think you might benefit from reflecting on why you are a vegan (health? genuine concern? something else?) and what that might mean for the rest of your life (use of animals in research, teaching, entertainment, fashion) and how your life relates to the lives of others. I've engaged in this process of reflection and do so on a daily basis. Consequently, I am quite confident in the veracity of my position. I don't make truth claims lightly and, in this case, I am certain I speak with the force of truth.
You're convinced of the morality of your ideas. Fair enough. You say you support the welfare of animals? I believe you. So then it should matter that you get to put your ideas into practice, shouldn't it? Otherwise, like the people you fret are being mollified by minimal animal welfare provisions, your moralizing does little more than make you feel good. (There are also the limited consequences you can bring about by your own personal actions, but in the case of your veganism, I already match you.)
You have so far failed to convince me that my economic arguments are wrong. Let's chalk that up to first principles. But if you can show me my belief system is inferior to yours in terms of securing animal welfare, then I would love to hear how you can do better. We both believe animal welfare has been insufficient, so in theory, the threshold is low. And yes, I absolutely believe that policy enters into this because I see no point in paying lip service to morals and losing sight of the big picture regarding the poor way in which animals are treated. I will do what I consider to be my part because of my set of morals, but I care about consequences. So I would much rather the general population become vegan for health reasons than have it acknowledge a lack morality but continue to eat meat regardless.
Consequences are also why tone is important. No matter how convinced you are of something, self-righteousness beyond a certain point is counterproductive in terms of winning people over to your point of view and getting them to change their thinking and/or behavior. If you could somehow convince someone reading this to go vegan, you will potentially have saved many animals from a miserable existence. If you only end up making the other people here tune out, what purpose has that served?
No, I don't. I reject it as an acceptable position. Welfare addresses "treatment" and not "use." I don't accept that one being can legitimately and justifiably be used as means for another.
It is remarkable that you have such a tap on my both my feelings and my actions. For my part, I sit on the board of governors and actively volunteer for a number of organizations, I teach animal law, animal welfare and animal rights in a university, and my research is in the area of 'animal studies.' From what I can tell, my life is completely organized around the betterment of animals. Is yours?
You have so far failed to convince me that my economic arguments are wrong.
That's fine - you are clearly comfortable with the absurd consequences of your position. A position that allows you justify the suffering of one group for the benefit of another! Once that structure is accepted, you've opened the door to all sorts of insanity.
Put another way, I don't accept the basis of the argument; viz., that beings can be legitimately and justifiable used in instrumental purposes by others for the benefit of the others. If you accept that position, then your argument is fine. I don't. It isn't compatible with improving the lives of either humans or animals.
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no subject
So much for your claim to see beyond 'black and white.' The question is not animal welfare or no welfare at all. The question is not one of how 'well' do we treat animals when we use them, but whether we should us them at all. You're asking a policy question; I'm asking a moral question.
And by "shrillness" you mean something to the effect of, "Someone disagrees with me. Why can't he respect my opinion? Why can't he see how hard I am trying? Why can't he see how much I care? (But not too much, of course, not enough to lead to any measurable change in the lives of animals. I'll accept that 'animal welfare' really does take the interests of animals into account even if there is no evidence to support that at all.)"
I'll be clear, it is great that you are a vegan, but I think you might benefit from reflecting on why you are a vegan (health? genuine concern? something else?) and what that might mean for the rest of your life (use of animals in research, teaching, entertainment, fashion) and how your life relates to the lives of others. I've engaged in this process of reflection and do so on a daily basis. Consequently, I am quite confident in the veracity of my position. I don't make truth claims lightly and, in this case, I am certain I speak with the force of truth.
no subject
You have so far failed to convince me that my economic arguments are wrong. Let's chalk that up to first principles. But if you can show me my belief system is inferior to yours in terms of securing animal welfare, then I would love to hear how you can do better. We both believe animal welfare has been insufficient, so in theory, the threshold is low. And yes, I absolutely believe that policy enters into this because I see no point in paying lip service to morals and losing sight of the big picture regarding the poor way in which animals are treated. I will do what I consider to be my part because of my set of morals, but I care about consequences. So I would much rather the general population become vegan for health reasons than have it acknowledge a lack morality but continue to eat meat regardless.
Consequences are also why tone is important. No matter how convinced you are of something, self-righteousness beyond a certain point is counterproductive in terms of winning people over to your point of view and getting them to change their thinking and/or behavior. If you could somehow convince someone reading this to go vegan, you will potentially have saved many animals from a miserable existence. If you only end up making the other people here tune out, what purpose has that served?
no subject
No, I don't. I reject it as an acceptable position. Welfare addresses "treatment" and not "use." I don't accept that one being can legitimately and justifiably be used as means for another.
It is remarkable that you have such a tap on my both my feelings and my actions. For my part, I sit on the board of governors and actively volunteer for a number of organizations, I teach animal law, animal welfare and animal rights in a university, and my research is in the area of 'animal studies.' From what I can tell, my life is completely organized around the betterment of animals. Is yours?
You have so far failed to convince me that my economic arguments are wrong.
That's fine - you are clearly comfortable with the absurd consequences of your position. A position that allows you justify the suffering of one group for the benefit of another! Once that structure is accepted, you've opened the door to all sorts of insanity.
Put another way, I don't accept the basis of the argument; viz., that beings can be legitimately and justifiable used in instrumental purposes by others for the benefit of the others. If you accept that position, then your argument is fine. I don't. It isn't compatible with improving the lives of either humans or animals.